View Full Version : Heavy pellets bad for springers?


Majorhavoc
08-12-2010, 02:21 PM
Specifically that it will quickly wear out your main spring.

I think someone here at AG1 mentioned this. It just didn't make any sense to me, but now I've found another reference to the same concept:

http://www.charliedatuna.com/Tune-ups.htm (Look all the way at the bottom of the page).

That's two sources now. Can someone explain to me exactly why it's bad for your spring? The link above talks about detonation. I'm guessing the argument is that inertia of the heavier pellet bottles up the air in the cylinder longer than a light pellet, increasing the likelihood of detonation?

Wouldn't that only be an issue until a new or newly-lubed gun stops dieseiling? (Which it's gonna do until it burns off excess lube, regardless of pellet weight.)

More to the point, the opposite extreme to a heavy pellet would be no pellet at all, aka dry firing. I thought dry firing a spring piston gun is really bad, because it causes excessive piston slap. Wouldn't a heavier pellet actually decrease piston slap?

I ask because I have this irrational need to not just know something, but to know why.

Also, my Beeman RS2 and I together have recently agreed that Crossman Premier Ultra Magnum Domes are the bomb. At 10.5 grains it is a heavy .177 pellet. Am I harming my gun?:(

GBertolet
08-12-2010, 02:38 PM
The heavier pellet increases piston bounce at the end of the firing sequence, as the heavier pellets take longer to get moving, which makes the air dam up more at the end of the piston stroke. Excessive piston bounce stresses mainsprings by violent recompression of the mainspring. Heavy dieseling does this also. If you are competent at tuning your own airgun, a mainspring is $15 to $20, and your time is free. So just shoot them and replace the spring when the velocity falls off. Possibly opening up your transfer port, would reduce the excessive air build up with heavy pellets. I would not go this route unless you are commited to heavies, as once the port is drilled there is no turning back, and how lighter pellets would perform after this procedure is uncertain.

headhunter
08-12-2010, 02:45 PM
Good question. I've always figured that if a gun comes in .177 and .22 caliber and has the same powerplant (Quest for example) then using pellets in the .177 close to the weight of a .22 pellet should do no harm. Unless opening up the transfer port is needed for that to be true. It's doubtful a Premier Dome heavy will damage your gun, but if you start shooting eun jin pellets you might wanna get a couple extra springs

Bentong
08-12-2010, 03:39 PM
My first RS2 after 6 months of using 10.5 CPHP/ultra magnum had to shipped out to Beeman. It lost power and when I shot it on a 1" wood it just bounced off and when I check it just made a dimple and pellet looks good to be re-cycled. I shot my Crosman G1 and it almost penetrated it. Beeman shipped back a new one which I still have till now. I deburred & lube tuned it to make sure seal and spring are good to go and only used the .22 for it's much smoother than shooting the .177. My G1 lost it's power after 5000+ rounds of 10.5 which shot it accurately. I now use the 10.5's sparingly. I use the 10.5's on my co2 AG and pneumatics for they benefit with the heavy pellets.

Majorhavoc
08-12-2010, 03:56 PM
I've always figured that if a gun comes in .177 and .22 caliber and has the same powerplant (Quest for example) then using pellets in the .177 close to the weight of a .22 pellet should do no harm.

I'm glad you mentioned that, Headhunter. Because my gun happens to be a dual caliber rifle. I simply choose to use the .177 barrel. 10.5 grains may be heavy for a .177 pellet, but its actually kinda light for a 22. By that logic I'm actually increasing the service life of my mainspring by leaving the .22 barrel in the box.
Or maybe its that the main springs in .22 guns don't generally last as long as their .177 counterparts?

GBertolet: so you're saying it's not the detonation per se that's damaging, it's what detonation leads to, namely a violent reverse pressure on the main spring. Is that it?

I certainly don't want to come across as difficult or obstinate. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this one.

I'd much prefer to talk about $400 prairie rats.

GBertolet
08-12-2010, 07:30 PM
Majorhavoc, you are correct in your interpetation of my implication that violent reverse action of the mainspring is what damages it. Here is another thought, on 22 vs 177 pellet weights. Equal weights between the two calibers, do not have equal results or consequences. The 22 bore being larger, once the pellet starts moving, even if towards the end of the piston stroke, has more volume, allowing more compressed air to leave the compression tube to fill that extra volume, in turn diminishing the amount of piston bounce. Some airgunners feel the 22 cal is a little smoother shooting than the 177, and this may have a little to do with it.

diarmadhim
08-12-2010, 10:56 PM
I've always thought this sounded more like a "My cousin had this friend that knew this girl who's old boyfriend had an airgun and only shot heavy pellets and his spring broke. All I'm saying is I've never heard a first hand account of this. In fact if I recall correctly, Craig tried causing his spring to fail shooting heavy pellets and was unable to. I know 1 case does not a scientific study make, but that's all I've got!

skiball83
08-13-2010, 02:32 AM
Shoot the gun. Break the spring. Replace the spring. Repeat. Its all about the fun of shooting. I get your point but all springs will fail at some point. Ive had factory springs fail at 2500-3000 rounds on 2 diffent guns within 3 weeks. If the gun shoots the pellet well then use the pellet. If you need to replace your spring a little early then so be it. Just my 2 cents.

Pete
08-13-2010, 02:36 AM
Hi..
One action being able to push .177 & .22 pellets...dual cal..
just because it can a 14g .22 pellet dose NOT
mean it can safetly push a 14g .177 pellet...
Why...PELLET SURFACE AREA
A .22 pellet even though its heavyer ..it has more surface area than a .177
and in fact is easyer to push...

Theres a LOT more to it than weight....After all the same action can saftely push a
7 grain .177 a 16 grain .22 pellet or a 25grain .25 pellet.. ie Webley Patriot .177/.22/.25
all the same action...

Just keep in mined what PSI means....Per Square Inch

Pete

Majorhavoc
08-13-2010, 09:32 AM
There's obviously some physics here that are beyond me.

But, I have to trust the more experienced airgunners here at AG1 that there's something to this. And that Charlie Tuna dude. His site that I linked to is a wealth of information. The guy was an airgun tuner and claims to have seen the insides of countless airguns. He seems to know what he's talking about.

Skillball, you've probably got exactly the right attitude. I guess the spring in an airgun is like brakes and tires on a car: they're designed to wear out. I just need to deal with it.

Still, there's a part of me that chafes at the idea that I'm possibly harming my gun (or harming it faster) with the heavy pellets. Especially if my spring could fail in as little as 2500 rounds. Heck, I'm well over halfway there.

Beeman doesn't sell replacement parts. They make you ship the entire gun back for servicing. Considering I only spent $59 on my RS2, that just isn't going to happen.

So, it looks like a homebrew spring compressor is definitely in my future. Any suggestions where I can find a replacement spring?

Bentong
08-13-2010, 10:19 AM
You can get with Compasseco and get the one for AR1000 series AG.

Majorhavoc
08-13-2010, 11:40 AM
Thanks Bentong. When the time comes, I'll give them a shot.

headhunter
08-13-2010, 01:55 PM
Makes sense, the more air that can escape the chamber the less rebound the spring would have to absorb. Good thing I really only use midweight pellets!!

Take Skiball83's advice though, springs are cheap and part of regular maintenance anyway so give her hell, what's the worst that could happen?

tirths
08-13-2010, 02:59 PM
It depends! IF the spring of your gun is designed for static operation, the heavy one decrease the spring life. Where is if the spring is designed for dynamic operation, you have nothing to worry about. Heavy pellets will be good.

Majorhavoc
08-13-2010, 03:27 PM
Good thing I really only use midweight pellets!!
As in many things in life, I guess the Goldilocks rule applies. This pellet is too heavy! This pellet is too light! But this pellet here? It's just right......

so give her hell, what's the worst that could happen?
Yeah, if you knew how my luck works, you wouldn't ask that kind of question. :shame2:

Pete
08-13-2010, 05:36 PM
There's obviously some physics here that are beyond me.

But, I have to trust the more experienced airgunners here at AG1 that there's something to this. And that Charlie Tuna dude. His site that I linked to is a wealth of information. The guy was an airgun tuner and claims to have seen the insides of countless airguns. He seems to know what he's talking about.

Skillball, you've probably got exactly the right attitude. I guess the spring in an airgun is like brakes and tires on a car: they're designed to wear out. I just need to deal with it.

Still, there's a part of me that chafes at the idea that I'm possibly harming my gun (or harming it faster) with the heavy pellets. Especially if my spring could fail in as little as 2500 rounds. Heck, I'm well over halfway there.

Beeman doesn't sell replacement parts. They make you ship the entire gun back for servicing. Considering I only spent $59 on my RS2, that just isn't going to happen.

So, it looks like a homebrew spring compressor is definitely in my future. Any suggestions where I can find a replacement spring?


LOL....

Its really very simple...

A 1 square inch surface area piston with 100psi of air pushing it has 100lbs of force..
Now a 2 square inch surface area piston with 100psi of air pushing it has 200lbs of force..
100 PSI.".Per Square Inch"

Majorhavoc
08-13-2010, 07:05 PM
LOL....

Its really very simple...

A 1 square inch surface area piston with 100psi of air pushing it has 100lbs of force..
Now a 2 square inch surface area piston with 100psi of air pushing it has 200lbs of force..
100 PSI.".Per Square Inch"

See, that's where you loose me.

I would have thought that 100psi on a 1 square inch surface area would be pushing at *one half* the force if it were spread over twice the surface area.

Scotty
08-13-2010, 07:16 PM
I shoot both the 7.9 and 10.5 grain Crosman pellets. Have never had a problem with any airgun failures. If and when an AG seems to have run its course. I just take it down and rebuild it. Use parts from Crosman.

Scotty

lampy
08-13-2010, 08:46 PM
See, that's where you loose me.

I would have thought that 100psi on a 1 square inch surface area would be pushing at *one half* the force if it were spread over twice the surface area.

How about this..... think about a hydraulic car jack (same basic principal except with fluid instead of air) you can lift a 1000 pounds with one hand.
Or break it down PSI- Per Square Iinch, so if you have 100 lbs pushing on 1 inch ..... crap I can't explain it.... :mad: but it works....:nod:
Guess I'll never be a teacher....

diarmadhim
08-13-2010, 10:16 PM
Pressure = force / area.

so with 100 pounds force on a 1" surface you get 100 psi.
increase the area to 2" and you get 50 psi.
decrease the area to 1/2" and you get 200 psi.

vadalejrfan
08-13-2010, 10:39 PM
Diar you are exactly right. I think :thumb:

WestTexas FarmBoy
08-14-2010, 01:22 AM
Exactly so. And to elaborate on that explanation, since Pressure = Force/Area; using a little Algebra we get: Pressure*Area = Force. And that brings us back to Pete's statement: 100 psi * 1 sq.in. = 100 pounds of Force. Double the Area, and you get double the Force; double the Pressure, and you get double the Force. Double 'em both, and you get 4 times the Force.

But I think that we are getting a little side tracked here we could continue with an in-depth discussion of fluid dynamics and the effects of static and dynamic friction as it all relates to pellet surface area due to caliber and so on and so forth.

Majorh, like your Beeman RS2 my Winchester 1000X loves Crossman Premier Ultra Magnum Domes (I mean Doomes inside joke, see the What's up with the BAM B-3 thread.). Right now, I have to agree with skiball Im going to keep shooting what Ive found that that actually gives me a chance at hitting what I aim at. But Ill keep trying other pellets while Im at it also. Im just wondering if a little loss in temper in the spring might not be a good thing. From what Ive read in my short time on these forums, it seems that the more accurate springers are the ones with lower muzzle velocities. Or have I just missed the threads to the contrary?
:confused:

Majorhavoc
08-14-2010, 09:03 AM
Exactly so. And to elaborate on that explanation, since Pressure = Force/Area; using a little Algebra we get: Pressure*Area = Force. And that brings us back to Pete's statement: 100 psi * 1 sq.in. = 100 pounds of Force. Double the Area, and you get double the Force; double the Pressure, and you get double the Force. Double 'em both, and you get 4 times the Force.

Ok, ok! I was just hanging in there to see if I might actually understand the basic science behind this. But I'm a sensible guy. When the conversation turns to algebraic equations and fluid dynamics, I know it's time to throw in the towel. I need to quit before someone starts quoting Boyle's Law. :p

I accept the truth that heavier pellets result in more back pressure on the main spring. All springs eventually become fatigued, but increased back pressure will speed up the process.

Larger diameter heavy pellets due not refute this truth because Cajun vodoo mojo times Jedi mind trick equals Unicorn pixie dust. Therefore the surface area argument cannot be used as a defence against the dark art of Evil spring back pressure.

That about right?

I'll finish off my tin of CP ultra magnums domes. But if I keep buying them, they apparently will spell doom for my gun.;)

Maybe I'll try those CPHP's everyone talks about.

Thanks everyone. It's been an education!:wave:

WestTexas FarmBoy
08-14-2010, 11:43 PM
I accept the truth that heavier pellets result in more back pressure on the main spring. All springs eventually become fatigued, but increased back pressure will speed up the process.

Larger diameter heavy pellets due not refute this truth because Cajun vodoo mojo times Jedi mind trick equals Unicorn pixie dust. Therefore the surface area argument cannot be used as a defence against the dark art of Evil spring back pressure.


Well put, Majorh :thumb: -- very well put indeed!! :rapture:

donw
08-15-2010, 10:33 AM
not being argumentative here, but...i checked the owners manual for my RWS and all it recommends is using the proper CALIBER pellets (no weight(s) mentioned) and to lube the spring and chamber, with the proper lubricants, after 1000 rounds.

the RWS has a lifetime warranty for those sold in the U.S. (but only 18 months on springs and seals)

and as i recall, my Beeman RX & R10 owners manual says nothing about pellet weights, only to use the correct CALIBER.

i suspect the manufacturers would caution if there were any potential issues involving pellets that may be considered as being "too heavy". :confused:

i normally use 8.0-8.5 grainers from the .177's but i do use the 10.5's also,and so far... without problems.

it would be my estimation that manufacturers do not consider 10.5 grain pellets as being to heavy or they'd so recommend to NOT use them. in fact, the Beeman catalog features 10.6 grain Kodiak and silver arrow pellets at 11.5 grains, pellets in .177 :cool:

what I'm expressing here is NOT scientific proof or evidence...it's my opinion based on my experiences and what I've read. i would not exceed the 11.5 grain weight of the Beeman Silver Arrow pellet, though. ;)

:cheers:

skiball83
08-15-2010, 10:48 AM
WTFB, most likely the guns you mentioned, ie, less powerful more accurate, are detuned models. When ever you detune a magnum springer the shot cycle becomes less prominate. Less shock on the parts equals a more accurate shot. If you want high power on a springer you will have to deal with more reverse recoil, and probably a more inconsistant shot. The more you tune your gun the smoother it will be but you cant fight force. More force = more recoil = less accuracy. Hope this helps.

shoot356
08-15-2010, 03:15 PM
;)I wasn't going to get into this discussion of forces and pressures, BUT when you increase the pressure exerted on the pellet to make it move faster, there is another equally important factor as pellet speed increases. Doubling the pressure on the pellet does not double the speed it travels at to the target. There is a law that applies to all things moving through a medium such as air. "If you double the speed, you quadruple the drag acting to resist the object's movement" This applies to bullets and pellets, baseballs, cars, airplanes, rockets, or anything else moving through the air. SO, if you want to double the speed of your pellet you have to put a lot more force behind it than you would ordinarily think. :nod::D

donw
08-15-2010, 05:02 PM
if you double the speed, you also quadruple the ENERGY...

that's another reason why i marvel at bowhunters...the quest for more speed is gone insane...yet the gains they make are so insignificant it has no real bearing on anything but accuracy...i've seen them go crazy just trying to get 3-5 fps more...and even then, it still ends up with the shooter being the most important factor.

the most effective airgunner, archer, bowhunter, powder burner shooter, muzzle loader shooter is the one who gets to know his equipment and how to use it.

Hoss
12-24-2010, 02:07 AM
does anybody know if all the above principles apply the nitro piston guns, or are they bullet proof?

diarmadhim
12-24-2010, 11:51 AM
Are you asking if heavy pellets are bad for gas pistons? interesting question if so.
If not please rephrase.

I'm still of the opinion, to use what ever pellet is most accurate in your gun. Whether its 4 grain(skenco or crosman) or 16.1 grain eun jin (.177). You're going to have to replace it at some point anyway. accuracy is king. Having said that I don't know that I would use the ultralight pellets in a spring gun. :D

Hoss
12-24-2010, 05:05 PM
yes, are heavy pellets or lite pellets bad for nitro pistons. im thinkin not but i really dont know

9Ring
12-25-2010, 09:24 AM
how heavy?

i'm thinking no...unless its 22+ grains.....

but the NP doesn't wear like a spring. damn it take 1000 rounds to fully seat the piston...


Splash expalined to me too light causes excessive slam...and to heavy excessive resistance ..both will wear the spring out faster than a medium...weighted pellet..


Spalsh did i remeber it right.???

vadalejrfan
12-25-2010, 02:34 PM
I'm not splash, but yes it sounds right to me.

cliffspot
01-02-2011, 04:16 PM
Heavy pellets are death for springers! Only a few guns can handle pellets over 9 grains, R1's are a good example. They have heavy pistons and heavy gauge springs. Aftermarket springs are better at handling the forces generated from heavy pellets. GBertolet covered the internal dynamics very well. The difference between a 177 cal and 22 cal on the same powerplant is the BORE. All HW guns Have the same size transfer ports in 177, 20, and 22 cal. I had a tunes B26..shot at 910 fps with CPL's. With this gun, you could feel the reverse harmonic when you fired heavy pellets...usually Cro Mags and heavier.Felt like a stutter at the end of the shot cycle. The "Tuna" guidelines are right on the money. The gas "spring" guns are immune to this effect. The light alloy pellets are bad too! They cause piston slam in all guns.

9Ring
01-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Heavy pellets are death for springers! Only a few guns can handle pellets over 9 grains, R1's are a good example. They have heavy pistons and heavy gauge springs. Aftermarket springs are better at handling the forces generated from heavy pellets. GBertolet covered the internal dynamics very well. The difference between a 177 cal and 22 cal on the same powerplant is the BORE. All HW guns Have the same size transfer ports in 177, 20, and 22 cal. I had a tunes B26..shot at 910 fps with CPL's. With this gun, you could feel the reverse harmonic when you fired heavy pellets...usually Cro Mags and heavier.Felt like a stutter at the end of the shot cycle. The "Tuna" guidelines are right on the money. The gas "spring" guns are immune to this effect. The light alloy pellets are bad too! They cause piston slam in all guns.

with pistons. they work well in pneumatics.


So not just a magic pellet.....one thats weighted for your rifle.


what the criteria? say a powerplant as the Rws 34.....much copied.

whats its heavy pellet. 10.5?

or the ruger air magnum...i have a fellow that does not beleive Rueger or the testing done by Gaylord
its a supermagnum.

i assume heavies are alright. 8.2 crack supersonically.

9Ring
01-05-2011, 11:53 AM
i didn't think it would get so complicated....back 15 years ago..bought a few good ones....bought a couple of tech forces...

used whatever was cheap for ammo...birds dropped so much so the lawn guy had to have a talk with me...hehe

DrTool
02-12-2011, 07:41 AM
Is this some kind of free College elective course?

I got a headache...

Bentong
02-12-2011, 08:03 AM
A good pellet is the one that shoots well. If your airgun breaks prematurely while shooting it then it's a bad accurate pellet. :thumb: Springs and seals are consumable and are designed to be replaced.

WestTexas FarmBoy
02-13-2011, 05:24 PM
A good pellet is the one that shoots well. If your airgun breaks prematurely while shooting it then it's a bad accurate pellet. :thumb: Springs and seals are consumable and are designed to be replaced.
:thumb: Once again -- RIGHT-ON BENTONG! :thumb:

bryan H
02-13-2011, 08:16 PM
All I know is premier ultra mags make nice, big holes through 1" spruce and everything else seems to flatten out and come out sideways, making smaller holes. Plus they are accurate in my gun. I can't tell a difference in the shot cycle either, though I'm not as savvy as some of y'all. I won't hunt with another pellet, and really don't even like plinking with anything as much as these. If it weakens my spring, I'll use that to justify buying a gas spring to my wife!

diarmadhim
02-19-2011, 12:02 PM
"Only a few guns can handle pellets over 9 grains..."

That's funny! I wonder if you shouldn't let Pyramyd Air know that every .22 pellet they carry is too much for most springers. Maybe they can put a disclaimer or something in the gun ads.

Bentong, I like that! great minds and whatknot. :D